Author Topic: Discussion Draft Comment Form  (Read 10813 times)

Offline Pantheus

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Discussion Draft Comment Form
« on: July 16, 2007, 08:47:27 AM »
Comment Form here:

http://www.pantheus.com/maps/discussiondraft.jpg    Click to view, then click the image to enlarge

Here is the comment form in adobe reader .pdf format, if easier for you - also attached here
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/discussiondraft.pdf

Here is the comment form in MS Word .doc format, if easier for you - also attached here
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/discussiondraft.doc


Closure map here:

http://www.pantheus.com/maps/closuremap.jpg  Click to view, then click the image to enlarge

Here is the closure map in adobe reader .pdf format, if easier for you - also attached here
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/closure.pdf

Here is the closure map in MS Word .doc format, if easier for you - also attached here
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/closure.doc

Here is the actual maps of the OHV area from the USFS that we are supposed to use as an attachment to the comment form.  With the section # & road# you are commenting about marked on IT.

Long, Campbell, Morris, Spring Valley area
Saddle Lake Access => Storrie NW, Section 31, Road # 6E12
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/DiscussionDraft_Storrie_NW.pdf

Chips Lake upper campsite => Belden SW, Section 20, Road # UC2901
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/DiscussionDraft_Belden_SW.pdf

Bear Lake campsite => Kimshew Point NE, Section 27, Road # UC2701
Bear Lake to Cow Camp Exit => Kimshew Point NE, Section 34 & 3 & 11 Road #TR5E19                                               
http://www.pantheus.com/maps/DiscussionDraft_Kimshew_Point_NE.pdf

All attachments are also downloadable by clicking the file name below in the attachments section.

If you'd like to comment on OTHER Lassen N.F. use areas, let me know and I'll provide the quad map of that area.  These are High Lakes area specific.

Ken
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 07:51:54 AM by Pantheus »
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Offline scout254

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 04:57:31 PM »
If anyone needs a printout of these maps...

 I did grab one of the USFS Lassen "map disc" that were handed out at the Chester meeting.  It has all of the Quarter Quad maps that have been modified by the FS.

I think we need to offer "Discussion Draft Form" workshops to those who need help....... ASAP


 

Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 05:37:15 PM »

I think we need to offer "Discussion Draft Form" workshops to those who need help....... ASAP
 

Brian,

Great idea !

Lets get it set up, and make it happen, I'll be there.

I have some 30 email address of some of those at the pizza meeting,  Corbin is getting the roster from Torey tomorrow and offered to call those who didn't list an email address.

If we could get a LOT of maps copied, and the comment form as well ...  we could make a workshop valuable.

Round Table room available this Thursday / Friday / next Monday? ???

Ken

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Offline scout254

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 09:26:21 PM »
Helpful info... Double check if you want ;D

Bear Lake campsite => Kimshew Point NE, Section 27, Road # UC2701

Chips Lake upper campsite => Belden SW, Section 20, Road # UC2901

Saddle Lake Access => Storrie NW, Section 31, Road # 6E12

Grassy Lake Exit => Storrie NW, Section 31 & 6 & 5, Road #6E14
                                                                         Road #6E15
                                                                         Road #6E16

Bear Lake to Cow Camp Exit => Kimshew Point NE, Section 34 & 3 & 11
                                                                         Road #TR5E19


Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 10:32:05 PM »
Excellent work, Brian

Bear Lake:
The UC routes are now noted as UNClassified,  whereas the Bear spur off 5E19, (now called 519) previously was a decommission status.  Then when I "sold" that issue to Susanville last late fall, they agreed to remove the decommission status.   So what that tells me,  that they could be open to receive TONS of comments and maps to call for its classification, and removal of the UC

Chips Lake:
The other UC on that list is the spur that goes out to the top of the cliff, and parking, for the views and hike down.  Lets get TONS of good comments there about views, excellent fishing, hike-down camping, solitude

I'm still researching what TR designation is (and what it may mean to us) ...  as in Bear Lake to Cow Camp.  Because that road / trail goes through sec 34,  crosses SPI land in Sec 3, and onto SPI system roads from R Line down to Cow Camp.  SPI system roads are not the realm of USFS.  It is on the 1968 USFS map as USFS maintained, and on the 1999 map as OHV Vehicle Route,  and on the 2000 OHV travel plan as 2 WD - which is a huge joke!  One old-timer who went with us 2 weeks ago said it "was tougher than Rubicon".

The additional quads have been added to the post of maps in .pdf  -- thanks to your great detective work.

Ken
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 11:03:31 PM by Pantheus »
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Offline 78-FJ40

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 05:07:29 AM »
Hey Ken,
I've looked at the High Lakes map and have a question. How are people
that own the land around Lotts Lake supposed to access it if the roads
leading to it are closed (25N04)? Do they have some special access
privilege?
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Offline 7Jake

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 06:57:50 AM »
I wasn't able to attend the meeting in Chester but noticed that there are some new notes on the trails in regard to seasonal use (summer/fall).  Does that mean winter travel is not allowed, even on top of 5 feet of snow?  Also, how is camping addressed in the areas of long lake, campbell, etc.? Can we still pull off the trail 50 feet or so to camp?  Should we make any mention of these issues in our letters?

Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 07:50:38 AM »
Hey Ken,
I've looked at the High Lakes map and have a question. How are people
that own the land around Lotts Lake supposed to access it if the roads
leading to it are closed (25N04)? Do they have some special access
privilege?


John,

It isn't the cabin and property owners at Lott Lake that have the problem, it is US / USFS.

Everyone has the right to use their own property for access.  The property that we use that passes from the "T" to  beyond Spring Valley is PRIVATE property, for the largest part.  First part is Lott Lake cabin owner's property, that's their right to pass, not legally ours (until or unless a right-of-way is legally granted, and today it may just be verbal),  then at Spring Valley it is SPI property, and there may not be legal right-of-way there either.  This brings into some play real estate laws , perhaps implied dedication, prescriptive easements, and memorandums of understanding,  or just plain verbal agreements to allow ingress / egress. 

Tricky, this is.

But bottom line, we have the problem,  not the cabin / property owners.

Ken
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Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 08:10:52 AM »
I wasn't able to attend the meeting in Chester but noticed that there are some new notes on the trails in regard to seasonal use (summer/fall).  Does that mean winter travel is not allowed, even on top of 5 feet of snow?  Also, how is camping addressed in the areas of long lake, campbell, etc.? Can we still pull off the trail 50 feet or so to camp?  Should we make any mention of these issues in our letters?

Among the next steps will be some of the answers to your questions.  Yes, each road has to be evaluated for its use.   This may include use by all vehicles, single tracks only, quads and bikes, or mountain bike, and / or foot only.  These aren't the exact definitions, and there are about ten categories listed as possible choices.  Every trail will have to be defined as to its use as well, and field evaluated.

At this point it also appears that seasonal travel may have some rules as well.   Winter / over-the-snow can and will have some special winter rules, different from summer use.  It "appears" winter travel may be classified as having at least 12 inches of white, and NO break-through and also may have separate rules for snowmobiles and 4 WD.  So yes, winter use by 4WD can and likely will have some changes coming in the very near future as well, as required by the Route Designation Guide.

At this point it appears that we are not restricted, as Eldorado/Rubicon is to centerline of historic trail plus 25 feet either side,  but it does "appear" that the no vehicles off any signed / posted legal trail must be in an established campground.  The entire OHV area of Lassen N.F. / High Lakes is closed unless marked open, and has been since about 1976.  So that would preclude leaving any and all roads except for established camping areas, period, anyway. 

Ken
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Offline 78-FJ40

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 10:13:57 AM »
Hey Ken,
I've looked at the High Lakes map and have a question. How are people
that own the land around Lotts Lake supposed to access it if the roads
leading to it are closed (25N04)? Do they have some special access
privilege?


John,

It isn't the cabin and property owners at Lott Lake that have the problem, it is US / USFS.

Everyone has the right to use their own property for access.  The property that we use that passes from the "T" to  beyond Spring Valley is PRIVATE property, for the largest part.  First part is Lott Lake cabin owner's property, that's their right to pass, not legally ours (until or unless a right-of-way is legally granted, and today it may just be verbal),  then at Spring Valley it is SPI property, and there may not be legal right-of-way there either.  This brings into some play real estate laws , perhaps implied dedication, prescriptive easements, and memorandums of understanding,  or just plain verbal agreements to allow ingress / egress. 

Tricky, this is.

But bottom line, we have the problem,  not the cabin / property owners.

Ken

What I meant was that the road to the Lotts Lake private land, 25N04, is a solid line entering from off of the map. Aren't solid lines closed? If so, wouldn't the property owners have to drive on a closed road to access their private land? Were they granted some special access to drive on the closed 25N04 road?

If that's not the case, and anyone can drive on the 25N04 road up to the Lotts Lake private land, then wouldn't it be up to the property owners to decide whether or not vehicles can travel across their land? If that's the case, then how can the USFS ticket someone on private land to access an OPEN National Forest road (611)? Also, if travel across private land is the only access point to open National Forest roads, then isn't there some type of egress that must be granted?

Another point that I'm trying to get at is that I don't see anything chaning in accessing the High Lakes because the Lotts Lake land is private. It's been private for years yet we've been able to drive across it. It seems the only affect of road closures would be if the access road to the private Lotts Lake land, 25N04, was closed. If it is closed, then that loops back to my first paragraph.
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Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 11:04:32 AM »
What I meant was that the road to the Lotts Lake private land, 25N04, is a solid line entering from off of the map. Aren't solid lines closed?

John,

If  you are looking at the closure map,  then the solid lines are system roads, county , and or SPI system roads...   county rd. from Inskip to the "T", SPI   T line off the "T",  and dotted on that map is OK to use, as are solid lines.

What is NOT OK for us to use (without permission, and or agreement) is the stuff that has NO lines, solid or dotted, ie:  Saddle / Chips / past Grassy, past Falls,  etc.  and that which is blacked out as being private ownership, ie:  Lott cabins & property / SPI  (Spring Valley - section 3 of PipeJam)

Which brings us to a (questionably) rhetorical issue.  If the closure map is to be believed and followed, and laws actually enforced,  then there is NO "legal" access to the High Lakes, nor to Ben Lomand. As all other ingress / egress has been closed for one reason or another.   Not the actual facts.

When we brought this to the Chester meeting, it was stated that the Lassen N.F., through region 5 legal-eagles, forced the map to not show access across private property nor into Plumas NF. (Ben Lomand), and they recognized  the problem in us understanding what to do,  but they had no choice.  They also assured us that access past Lott Lake, past Spring Valley, and out to Ben Lomand, while possibly prohibited by the looks of the closure map,  was still allowed and able to be used.

If so, wouldn't the property owners have to drive on a closed road to access their private land? Were they granted some special access to drive on the closed 25N04 road?

See above

If that's not the case, and anyone can drive on the 25N04 road up to the Lotts Lake private land, then wouldn't it be up to the property owners to decide whether or not vehicles can travel across their land?

Absolutely fact....   and yes, any and all private land owners may have the right to restrict, without notice or reason traffic across their property.  This is one reason we the users,  and all users must respect and obey the conditions set out by the land owners.  In the case of the Lott Lake owners,  those include stay on trail, no trespassing or fires, or hunting off the trails.  And new signs are up to enforce that.  So far SPI isn't imposing anything at Spring Valley, or in writing anywhere else,  but we're working with them too.

If that's the case, then how can the USFS ticket someone on private land to access an OPEN National Forest road (611)? Also, if travel across private land is the only access point to open National Forest roads, then isn't there some type of egress that must be granted?

Another point that I'm trying to get at is that I don't see anything chaning in accessing the High Lakes because the Lotts Lake land is private. It's been private for years yet we've been able to drive across it. It seems the only affect of road closures would be if the access road to the private Lotts Lake land, 25N04, was closed. If it is closed, then that loops back to my first paragraph.

If all the above doesn't still answer your issues, feel free to post back, or call me

Ken
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Offline 78-FJ40

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 11:12:11 AM »
...
When we brought this to the Chester meeting, it was stated that the Lassen N.F., through region 5 legal-eagles, forced the map to not show access across private property nor into Plumas NF. (Ben Lomand), and they recognized  the problem in us understanding what to do,  but they had no choice.  They also assured us that access past Lott Lake, past Spring Valley, and out to Ben Lomand, while possibly prohibited by the looks of the closure map,  was still allowed and able to be used. ...

So then, assuming that nothing has changed regarding the Lotts Lake property owners view of driving between the T and Spring Valley lake, am I reading this correctly that we can still drive up to the lakes accessed via dashed lines (e.g. Morris, Long, Campbell, etc.)?
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Offline Pantheus

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 11:36:57 AM »
So then, assuming that nothing has changed regarding the Lotts Lake property owners view of driving between the T and Spring Valley lake, am I reading this correctly that we can still drive up to the lakes accessed via dashed lines (e.g. Morris, Long, Campbell, etc.)?

Your statement, and assumptions are correct TODAY.  Nothing has changed with any dotted or solid line areas on the closure map, including Long, Campbell, and Morris, past Lott and Spring Valley, including out to Ben Lomand.  However if there is no solid (system road) or dotted (open) then it IS forbidden, ie: Bear Lake past the falls, to Saddle, to Chips, or past Grassy then a violation has occurred.

Ken
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Offline Scooterloo

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 06:49:55 PM »

I think we need to offer "Discussion Draft Form" workshops to those who need help....... ASAP
 

Brian,

Great idea !

Lets get it set up, and make it happen, I'll be there.

I have some 30 email address of some of those at the pizza meeting,  Corbin is getting the roster from Torey tomorrow and offered to call those who didn't list an email address.

If we could get a LOT of maps copied, and the comment form as well ...  we could make a workshop valuable.

Round Table room available this Thursday / Friday / next Monday? ???

Ken





This is a good idea, just to make sure those less involved don't cite the wrong trail or forget the map highlighting......

Offline tomass15

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Re: Discussion Draft Comment Form
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2007, 05:36:46 AM »
Question on Belden SW for Chips Lake

You list UC2901 as the road, I don't see UC2901 on the map.  I see the trail from TR6E19 to the lake (250620UC05)

Just wanted to double check the road name on the map being used.

Thanks, Tom

Some forms being sent in used the Quad Maps from the other section of the LNF page, this should be fine as long as the highlights are correct and the road names close or match the particular map used.