Author Topic: Chester meeting July 14  (Read 8424 times)

Offline Pantheus

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Chester meeting July 14
« on: July 14, 2007, 05:05:00 PM »
I'd like to hear the thoughts of those who attended.

Chicomecha and I were there from 1:00 to 5:30   but before we make any comments, I'd like to hear from those who were there earlier,  and I looked at the sign in so I know some of you were there

Oh, 'ya and a highlight was meeting Sage and B.J, and deja. !

Ken
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Offline KNUCKLEHEAD

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 06:07:14 PM »
To me it seemed they set use up to fail.

There where some trails they said they could not find and they still put them as resource damage trails and closed them ???


I think they just mest with a hornets nest :o
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 06:17:54 PM by KNUCKLEHEAD »

Offline Scooterloo

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 08:06:29 PM »
What I got out of the whole deal is: There is a HUGE communication gap between the employees of the forest service and not everyone knows the exact protocol of the way the forest is run, and more importantly the way the forest has been used over the years.  I can't help but reference "Night at the Museum" the movie with Ben Stiller.  Not to take anything away from the people who are working that job because they have a huge area to manage, and I respect that but the  extensive rules and beauracracy  is reminicent of the IRS,(TOO many rules to make any sense)

My main point is we MUST get every person who goes to the High Lakes to fill out the forms, and designate the routes we want open (AGAIN) and hope our opinion has some weight. 

Offline Pantheus

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 08:17:03 PM »
What I got out of the whole deal is: There is a HUGE communication gap between the employees of the forest service and not everyone knows the exact protocol of the way the forest is run, and more importantly the way the forest has been used over the years.  I can't help but reference "Night at the Museum" the movie with Ben Stiller.  Not to take anything away from the people who are working that job because they have a huge area to manage, and I respect that but the  extensive rules and beauracracy  is reminicent of the IRS,(TOO many rules to make any sense)
Here's (part of) what I posted on another board:

One of the major points that I kept hammering, until they admitted it was that they did one piss poor job of communicating. Their reply was we put it in papers. I reminded them the world was digital, and Grandma who read the paper doesn't care, WE DO.

I said if they were actually LOOKING for participating, they'd not have used a Redding paper, a Reno paper, they'd had the frigging meeting *IN* Chico where the users could get to it.

In the end, they all agreed they had to do a better job of communicating, and took my address email, phone, and web site...

If nothing else we're going to hear more... it won't close the barn door now that the horse is stolen, but it will help us in the long run.

My main point is we MUST get every person who goes to the High Lakes to fill out the forms, and designate the routes we want open (AGAIN) and hope our opinion has some weight. 

AND THESE comment forms MUST be in BEFORE AUGUST 1  ! , 2 weeks,   NOT the usual 45 days.

Get busy folks...  if you don't have comment forms PM or see Norm at the Off_Road Center, I'll take a few there.

Ken
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Offline Buneduggy

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 06:45:56 PM »
Unfortunatley I must agree with Scooter, the meeting while somewhat informative, really depended on who you talked to at any given time.  Almost as if the right hand didn't know what the left was doing. I know they have a great responsibility in what they do, but for the amount of time and energy they want to put into closing these areas, you would think they could back up there decisions with hard facts. Most of the conversations I personally overheard jumped from one subject to another and for over an hour had really no sense of an organized meeting.  I am greatful they allowed us to be there and ask questions, give suggestions and to be a part of the issue. I just thought it was going to be handled differently, maybe hoping for something a little more profesional? Sorry about my spelling today, too much sun....

Buneduggy

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Offline Pantheus

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 07:30:26 PM »
The decisions to close did NOT come from Chester, or the Almanor District office,  but from the on-ground hydrologist who informed the Susanville HQ, and they were closed.  That hydrologist, conveniently was not there,  but his report was, in rough form that we could only see, and not have (yet)

There is a difference between a workshop,  where there is discussion give and take,  and an Open House, which is more a meet & greet, and one-on-one.

I agree that each of them there had entirely different job descriptions,  and may not have known the answer to every question, or maybe even had a different take on the answer.

I guess knowing who to ask  and who could actually want to receive input in their realm is invaluable, and only comes from repeated contact over the years.

In my opinion it went as well as I could have hoped, even though the answers were not necessarily available, and surely not satisfactory to most of us.

But the door is now open to further dialog, and input.  And the ball is IN our court to let them know in exact, full descriptive ways what we have issues with on the draft.  And I have several, and I hope ya'll do too.  And please do it in complete, scenic travel way, destination to views and important for fishing, camping, family recreation, relaxation,  and WHY a trail / segment is important to you and your family.  Please NO keep it open, period stuff.

Ken
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Offline porterwagner

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 01:48:43 PM »
The meeting was informative to a certain extenet. When it came to getting questions answered, they never did. Everyone noticed the communication between the users and the n.f. was horrible. The part that was probably the worst was that the hydrologist did not show up, and that the hydrologist report was not there for the public to view. Elizabeth Norton did not have a good answer for the reasoning for this shut down. Also... When asked what the Hydrologist was basing his reasons for his closure, he had no base. Was there reports from 5 yrs ago, 10, 15, 20?? No, apparently it was based on Hear-say. Some old brothers told him that 25 years ago they were able to drive a volkswagen back into the high lakes through grassy. WTF!! Are you kidding me. That does not seem legitimate to me, and many others.  SHOW US. I don't feel that they are obligated to shut down a trail and not even show the public the reasoning behind it. What a joke. And so much for a one year closure, how about 2009 "if we are lucky." It's probably a good thing the hydrologist wasn't available. Oh, and on the way out of Campbell from camping on Sunday morning, I saw Elizabeth Norton camping at Long Lake. So the only bad thing I can think about is all the people who came rooting into camp blaring their music after midnight and being disrepectful. She's probably all for closing the area down at the T. After all the strash I saw on the trail (I did pick up lots of it too) I might as well join their bandwagon and say close down everything. No respect from some people, and those are the ones who screw it over for all of us.

Offline Pantheus

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 02:11:07 PM »
The part that was probably the worst was that the hydrologist did not show up, and that the hydrologist report was not there for the public to view.

The hydrologists report WAS available to read, A couple of us did,  but not yet available for public consumption.

Elizabeth Norton did not have a good answer for the reasoning for this shut down. Also... When asked what the Hydrologist was basing his reasons for his closure, he had no base. Was there reports from 5 yrs ago, 10, 15, 20?? No, apparently it was based on Hear-say. Some old brothers told him that 25 years ago they were able to drive a volkswagen back into the high lakes through grassy. WTF!! Are you kidding me.

Calm down, Torey  ...  have the required patience to work this RIGHT !

The Hydrologist, is a contract hire, not a USFS employee, any longer, he retired.  His report is based on a two month trek through the entire area last fall.

I do have the entire basis for the report...  too many pages, and I am obligated to not share that yet, and soon we should have a copy of each piece of the report, and be able to deal with that better,  for now all we know are the rules and basis of the evaluation,  not the results.

That does not seem legitimate to me, and many others.  SHOW US. I don't feel that they are obligated to shut down a trail and not even show the public the reasoning behind it. What a joke. And so much for a one year closure, how about 2009 "if we are lucky." It's probably a good thing the hydrologist wasn't available.

Their responsibility is to responsibly manage the area...and they ARE doing that...  while the details may seem slow-coming to us...this is largely NOTHING new...  we need far more patience than YOU are willing to exhibit...     NOTHING can be done to undo the emergency closure...now you need to learn how to have a better influence on the users in the area,  and a better understanding of how these things work.  Become part of the solution, and not the problem.


Oh, and on the way out of Campbell from camping on Sunday morning, I saw Elizabeth Norton camping at Long Lake. So the only bad thing I can think about is all the people who came rooting into camp blaring their music after midnight and being disrepectful. She's probably all for closing the area down at the T. After all the strash I saw on the trail (I did pick up lots of it too) I might as well join their bandwagon and say close down everything. No respect from some people, and those are the ones who screw it over for all of us.

Yes, she left the meeting Saturday to go up to the area, and for herself find out what some of us told her...   that she found rowdy users, is not surprising...and why I go Monday - Friday

And why can't WE do some policing?  We've been asked to do that... 

http://www.4x4trailfinders.com/topic,126.0.html

Ken
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Offline mooseknuckle

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 03:38:21 PM »
Torey

So would you be referring to people being disrespectful at my camp site? I think it was a good example of how people are getting out and enjoying there National Forest. By the way thanks for taking all the recyclables that morning and leaving me the Five bags of trash. You also missed the diaper on the way out of campbell by long lake. Bring up topics like these on a land use board is not helping US! I think you need to calm down a little and have some more patience. We have until August 1 so lets give them intelligent and thoughtful reasons to keep our favorite places open. Telling them WTF is not helping. I think they realize the lines of communication were broken this weekend. Bashing them on boards is going to make them want lines of communication to stay broken. I think we all need to keep working together and continue to spread the word for everyone to get involved and submit their form for their favorite sites. This is the time to keep our COMPOSURE!! I hope Elizabeth Norton had a good time and saw everyone else having a good time. We all should be friends here and I have no hard feelings at anyone, I have very tough, thick skin so get mad at me if you want to but lets work together and keep our Aces in our pockets. Corbin
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 03:40:34 PM by mooseknuckle »

Chadd

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 03:56:34 PM »
I was at the meeting from 9am to 1pm.. The parts i was most upset about was the FS attendees. No Lorrie tippin, No Al Vasquez no mike derrick. These are the people making dissicions for US and they were not there to answer questions. one of the trails closed i think it's 614 below grassy lake is a single track that i rode through two weeks ago i have some pics of the trail and I'll post them up. I think that is why nobody could find the trail. The decissions that were brought down are directed from Reigon 5 and as you know Lorrie tippin is leaving next month to take a position at reigon 5.. So my guess is what ever reigon told her to do she did.

Offline porterwagner

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 06:37:03 PM »
Corb, no comment, I'll call you up to clarify, and you can have everyones recyclables!!
Ken, how'd you manage to get the hydroligist report?? They didn't have it available at the 9 a.m. meeting when we asked for it. I don't get why you get it and can not share it with others. I think this would give us all a better understanding then for his reasoning. As for just about everything else, I guess my jobs done on trying to spread the word and keep people informed. I can't work with people who think I"m constantly against them. We need more people to get fired up about this to get things done. If we all sit around with our thumbs up our ass nothings going to get done. Most of us are working throughout the day and have no time to deal with this crap. Too bad I'm just part of the problem and not part of the solution. You just don't get it that I'm willing to help out, but if you constantly think I'm against you and everyone else then think that. It's no wonder that some of the people who I talked to before who have tried to get involved just say screw it. I guess I might as well enjoy our trails while we still have them until they all get shut down. I'm glad you are in charge and keep running the show. If anyone wants to help Corbin call up all the other people, give him a call, I'll let him post his #, it was on the flyers. I'm sure I'll stay involved, but I'm not wasting anymore of my time trying to get the information out, who am I kidding, EVERYONE has internet access! 30 out of 140 isn't too bad!! Help Corbin call people if you want to see these trails remain open and if this cause means more to you than it does for me NOW at this time after all this bullshi*.

Torey

Offline Pantheus

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Re: Chester meeting July 14
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 08:00:44 PM »

Ken, how'd you manage to get the hydroligist report?? They didn't have it available at the 9 a.m. meeting when we asked for it. I don't get why you get it and can not share it with others.

Torey,

If you read above more carefully, you will recognize, I DO NOT HAVE the report, I was able to glance at it.  What I do have is the CRITERIA, and methodology for what the report is, and how it is put together, and the rules, and discussion behind it.  I DO NOT have the data of each inch of each trail.

Too bad I'm just part of the problem and not part of the solution. You just don't get it that I'm willing to help out, but if you constantly think I'm against you and everyone else then think that.

Torey

Torey,

Your enthusiasm is outstanding, your desire to get things done, yesterday, is admirable, and this project does need leadership,  and get it done guys,  but with direction, and a clear understanding of what is needed and how the system works. And the ability to work WITHIN that system.

Here is a clip from an email that was sent to me,  from someone who tried to read your posts, and with permission I am sharing:

Tell them:

"Please listen, be patient, go with the rules.  Things will get done!"

"As Confucius says (at least I think the quote came from him) “Slowly, Slowly, catchee Monkey”"

"Why not  listen to those who have tread this path before you, and learn from their experiences?"

"You may think they are “old foggies” but they have been dealing with these problems before you were born!"


I say, Torey,  If you want to come and sit on the patio, and listen, and learn,  and know what you are doing,  my time is yours,  because with your desire, and enthusiasm that is needed too,  but within the system.  But posting the same stuff on too many boards,  and running off half-cocked, yet getting the communities attention is great...
That too is needed.  If you can stay involved and learn what needs to be done, I offer help,  and to gain your help.

I am NOT in charge of anything...  I am just one who has been doing this same thing at several levels for way too long...  and yes, sometimes I get burned out and have left the scene,  but always get pulled back into it,  like the last 2 1/2 years...  but a lot deeper than your two weeks.

Ken
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